Bartolo

March 2005

All the people in our town were killed during the massacre. My mother was killed. My grandparents had already died. Our original village, Yalamopoch, was burned. Our house was burned. It’s not there, it doesn’t exist. We escaped with my father. It took 3 days for us to get to Mexico. We went with many people through the mountains, there isn’t a path. We went day and night, climbing. We were hiding from the army in the mountains.

When we got to Mexico we weren’t received well, but they allowed us to stay. Before this war, my father would go every so often to work in Mexico. So, he already had friends there. We lived in a refugee camp, far away from the Mexicans. We lived in a house with a lot of people, maybe 10 people. It was very crowded. The houses were very close together. I went to elementary school and one year of secondary school there.

My father, my uncles, all of the people that went to Mexico they told me what happened. I didn’t see what happened but they talked about it. It is very sad. It affected me a lot because I didn’t have a mother. In Mexico we talked a lot about this, but, well, we only talked between the refugees, not with the Mexicans. Sometimes it’s better not to …we prefer not to talk. Because it’s sad, it’s painful.

We came back to Guatemala because my father is a leader, an important person, he’s an organizer of the refugees.

We returned on January 13, 1993.What happened was, the Permanent Commission organized the return of the refugees to Guatemala. The Permanent Commission was organized in Mexico, for those of us who had lived in Tescado.

We gathered in Comitan. They put us in Quintana Roo, Campeche, Merida. Then we gathered on the 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 of January. And on the 20 of January we left Comitan. We arrived at the Mesilla, the same day, and we stayed to sleep in Huehuetenango. So, on the 20th of January, we returned. We crossed the border of Mexico into Guatemala.

And where I live, my village is called Victoria 20 de enero, because we crossed the border of Mexico on the 20 of January in 1993. We were the first group of returnees.

I was 13 years old. I was sad because I didn’t want to come because I wasn’t used to Guatemala and things were going well in Mexico. I was studying typing and how to make shoes and jewelry .

I was crying and my father was crying, too. We were both very sad. We didn’t want to return to Guatemala because it’s very violent. I was reading in the newspaper this past month that Guatemala is the 4th most violent country in the world. It’s worrisome, but that’s the way it is.

My uncles didn’t return to Guatemala, because they were afraid. They are still living in Mexico.

So, I was in secondary school when we arrived here in Guatemala. I studied basico. In IGER, by correspondence because we didn’t have money to be able to study in a college. So, that’s how I studied. I studied two years in IGER. I finished tercero basico and the next year, I studied teaching in a boarding school. I studied there for three years. After three years there, I graduated as a bilingual teacher in two language, Spanish and K’iche.

But now I am very happy living in Guatemala. I am a Guatemalan citizen. I’m expecting to get my diploma and my license. I’m looking forward to that. What matters to us is to rise above our history. To be professionals now. That is our hope.

The students talk together. Yes, we talk about superficial things. Sometimes I talk with people who have a similar situation. But there are many students who have a different situation. Maybe a student who stayed in Guatemala or went to another country, it’s not like my situation because my family went to Mexico and came back.

But to speak of the war is a bit dangerous. Because sometimes, the people that talk a lot about the stories, it can be that they are killed. So, it’s better not to talk to whatever person…how would I say it? We say, we cannot talk about this when a military, or an ex-military is there. We say, maybe the military is going to tell you ahhh… it’s the military that killed the people… So, I don’t talk about the situation. You have to be careful in public. It’s somewhat dangerous.

I like studying. It opens our minds to see things with objectivity and for that reason, I have liked it. And it’s the only way to come out ahead…we cannot live the way we were in the villages; a man who is 15 years old already has a woman. I am 25 years old and I do not have a wife.

But I think that we, the professionals, we are going to be the difference in the future. Yes, this is the hope, and I think that we have to do it. That’s why I’m studying English, I want to be a professor. Now I’m studying law at the University. I enrolled to study in the University of San Carlos with the support of the program (FEPMaya). I studied in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 up until now.

Now I want to prepare myself to be something important. In the future. That’s why I want to learn other languages. I’m going to keep going. I hope to study in another country. In the next year or two I have to write my thesis and then I’ll finish.

I hope to write a book about my history. I hope to write my book.

Kaqla, diciembre de 2009 Discusión de ¿Cuál Guerra?

Kaqla:

Después de leer el libro, mi primera impresión o mi primer sentimiento es la importancia de mantener y rescatar la memoria. Con la guerra civil perdimos, perdimos nuestro proceso, perdimos nuestra vida, pero básicamente perdimos nuestra oportunidad de hablar y decir qué es lo que está sucediendo en nuestras vidas, cuáles son nuestros sentimientos producto de la guerra civil, de la opresión y de la represión. Creo que no tuvimos tiempo para reflexionar y para pensar hacia dónde vamos.

 

¿Porque la gente estaba ocupada tratando de sobrevivir?

 

Exactamente. Así que con esta oportunidad de hablar y recordar —ya que ésta es la importancia de la memoria—, recordar que estábamos viviendo… es decir, estábamos viviendo en ese tiempo y tenemos que recordar lo que sentíamos, no podemos continuar en la vida olvidando o perdiendo esta parte de nuestra memoria. Por eso digo que es importante mantener la memoria. No sólo para la siguiente generación, sino para todo el mundo, para nosotros, para nuestra dignidad, para nuestra existencia. Tenemos que recordar dónde estábamos, qué sentíamos. Así que es importante para nosotros y, en mi opinión, podemos hacer algo con la memoria de la gente que murió durante la guerra civil. Pero antes tenemos que reconocernos a nosotros mismos.

 

¿Y qué hay de la gente que dice que la memoria y recordar la historia es demasiado doloroso?

 

Estoy de acuerdo y creo que es muy doloroso, pero creo que es mejor vivir viendo y tocando este dolor, porque después de hablar uno se siente mejor consigo mismo, es decir, es parte de tu vida y necesitas hablar de ello. La primera o primeras veces puede ser muy doloroso, pero después creo que se hace más fácil. Y el dolor es parte de nuestra vida y es la parte más difícil de nuestra vida y a veces no podemos verlo, no queremos verlo, no queremos reconocerlo en nuestra vida; sólo queremos seguir adelante, caminando derechos, sin voltear atrás para vernos a nosotros mismos con nuestro dolor, con nuestros sentimientos desagradables. Pero también hay cosas buenas. Así que creo que es necesario.

 

La realidad es que no hablar sobre ello no significa que no sienta dolor.

 

Exactamente. Bueno, mi mamá habla a veces. Esta mañana estaba recordando algunos momentos del sufrimiento en nuestra vida en aquel entonces. Habla sobre cosas, pero sólo un poquito. A veces despierta en la noche y empieza a hablar sobre mi hermana, quien “desapareció”, o sobre mi papá, quien fue asesinado. De repente para de hablar y se vuelve a dormir. Lo que hay que hacer es escucharla. Y sólo es por breves momentos. Pero me doy cuenta que ahora es diferente en comparación con cinco o diez años atrás.

 

Ahora habla más. Quizá sólo por cinco minutos, o un minuto, y quizá sólo para recordar algo como “Ah, ésta era la comida favorita de tu hermana” y “Recuerdo una vez”, cosas así…

 

Y tal vez si uno empieza a preguntarle o algo así, ella deja de hablar. Y mi opinión acerca de este libro es que pensé que tenía toda la perspectiva de las partes dolorosas de la historia humana pero, cuando leí el libro, dije no, esto es más de lo que había pensado. Me siento más cerca de la gente (que contó sus historias) y siento que es una historia de todos nosotros. Siento que puedo compartir más, tal vez por medio del libro pude entender a la gente y compartir con ellos que estoy con ellos y ellos están conmigo. Incluso si nunca hablamos al respecto, nunca.

 

En mi testimonio dije que habíamos perdido cosas que quizá no recuperaremos nunca, pero ahora puedo pensar que estamos construyendo juntos otra vez. Es la oportunidad de construir de nuevo y de decir sí, tuvimos esta situación, perdimos muchas cosas, pero estamos vivos y también estamos reconstruyendo. Creo que es necesario seguir adelante y ver hacia el futuro y decidir lo que queremos como individuos, como un movimiento maya, como una lucha, la lucha maya. Tenemos que ver el pasado y hablar sobre el pasado. Y pienso que eso es lo más importante de este libro. Y creo que es el primer libro que habla sobre las experiencias de los jóvenes y no sobre política. Esto no significa que los jóvenes no tengan posturas políticas, pero creo que estamos hablando de nuestras experiencias cuando éramos muy jóvenes o niños o niñas pequeñas, gente chiquita. Así que creo que eso es lo más importante, darnos una voz para decir lo que sentíamos en ese tiempo. No ahora, sino en ese entonces.

 

Eso es exactamente lo que usted me dijo y recuerdo ese momento… Fue mucho antes de que escribiera el libro. Me dijo “gracias por dar a conocer al mundo la historia de los jóvenes mayas”. Y recuerdo estar parada junto a usted pensando, “No puedo hacerlo, es muy difícil, no sé cómo hacerlo”. Y con su ayuda y la de las otras personas que dieron su testimonio logramos hacerlo.

 

Usted lo expresó desde el principio, mucho antes de que yo tuviera certeza de lo que estábamos haciendo. Y eso me catapultó hacia adelante para hacerlo realidad. Lo que espero que suceda con el libro es que encontremos una forma de introducirlo en el sistema educativo, de manera que otros jóvenes aprendan y entiendan la historia real. Usted dijo antes que el libro es simple, que está escrito en un lenguaje sencillo; eso se debe a que ésa fue la forma en que las personas se expresaron, no es un libro teórico. Éstas son las voces de las personas que pasaron por esas experiencias.

 

Estoy de acuerdo. Mis guías mayas me dijeron que el dolor te puede purificar, y dijeron que nuestra vida es como un hilo que a veces tenemos que enrollar o desenrollar.

 

Y algunas partes de nuestra vida no son muy buenas, no son muy felices, pero cuando le hacemos frente al dolor, siento que podemos lograrlo, podemos purificar nuestra alma. Y entonces puedo recordar con más claridad a las otras personas que ya no pueden hablar porque murieron. Y la historia está en ¿Cuál Guerra?, mucha gente habla de amigos, de padres y madres, de hermanos y hermanas.

 

Tal vez antes no podían hablar o no quieren hablar del asunto nunca, pero ahora de hecho están reconociendo su lucha. Con los testimonios de los estudiantes, están reconociendo no sólo sus propias vidas sino la vida de la familia, la lucha de la familia. Y creo que no necesariamente tienen implicaciones políticas. Es su vida diaria. Así que creo que, para mí, esto es lo más importante del libro.

 

¿Cree que sería posible introducir el libro en el sistema educativo de manera que más gente lo lea? ¿Y cuál considera que sería la mejor forma de distribuirlo?

 

Creo que es difícil, pero puede ser una meta porque, por ejemplo, en los Acuerdos de Paz uno de los compromisos era que los informes de la Comisión de la Verdad se distribuyeran en el sistema oficial de educación.

 

¿Y se ha cumplido?

 

No. No. Y es un compromiso del Gobierno, porque la ONU dijo que es necesario que la nueva generación sepa lo que pasó en Guatemala y, de hecho, la primera recomendación fue del REMHI, el libro del arzobispo Gerardi, Guatemala, ¡nunca más! La ONU dijo que es necesario compartir, hablar sobre esto. No ha sucedido porque este sistema oficial no tiene el interés. Un lado no tiene interés en hablar sobre ello; el otro lado está interesado en ocultarlo.

 

Es decir que aunque hay un mandato de que esta información se difunda, no se ha cumplido. ¿Piensa que ¿Cuál Guerra? estaría en la misma categoría, que el Gobierno no querría que el libro fuera distribuido?

 

Podemos hacer el intento. Editorial Cholsamaj probablemente tenga contactos en el Ministerio de Cultura y quizá ellos podrían hablar con el Ministerio de Educación, y veremos. Tal vez pueda distribuirse por medio de la Fundación Rigoberta Menchú, por ejemplo, o de la Comisión Presidencial contra el Racismo.

 

¿Conoce a Ricardo Falla? Es un sacerdote que estaba con las CPR (Comunidades de Población en Resistencia) durante la guerra civil y, de hecho, él ha empezado a escribir sobre los jóvenes. Porque dijo que la última vez que escuchamos las historias de la guerra civil, éstas fueron sólo sobre adultos, pero ¿qué pasó con los niños? Y el año pasado hizo una presentación sobre los jóvenes.

 

El libro trata acerca de cómo viven hoy en día los jóvenes en comunidades mayas donde la guerra civil afectó mucho, por ejemplo, en Ixcán o Quiché. Qué es de ellos. Él estaba pensando en una estrategia para compartir y para hacerle llegar los libros a más jóvenes…

 

Creo que ¿Cuál Guerra? expresa que es una parte importante de la historia sobre la que ustedes tuvieron el valor de hablar. Es muy importante sacarla y hacer que la gente la lea. Ése es el siguiente paso.


Miguel, Brenda, Maria, Manuel C, Johanna, A.G.

We’re going to talk about Cual Guerra? If you have a personal experience you want to tell us, you can do that. It does not necessarily have to be your own personal experience. It can be the experience that your family told you about or that has been a consequence for the society. And if you want to make comments about the book you can also do that.

Student: I read the part about Víctor. And it is very interesting to be living with B., because he is someone who lived the experience first  hand. And when I see him I think about all the things happened to him.

Well, with B, it is evident that he bears the scars that make him the person he is today. That is, he is obviously a person who suffers from something we were discussing the other day: post-traumatic stress disorder.. I don’t know… traumas. About the mind. But, in spite of that, it is really gratifying to see him in his daily life, trying to enjoy life after what happened. For me, that is one of the nicest things in the book.

Have you talked about your experiences with anyone before today?

Miguel:  I have a comment about what I think about you as an author who writes in English. I think the book would be different if it were written by a Guatemalan author. For example, the book by Father Falla, Masacres en la selvaTibukEl verde púrpuraEn Guatemala los héroes tienen quince añosLa hija del pumaResarcimiento y pazLos héroes están bajo la tierra. These six books is very important. These Guatemalan authors of these six books have changed my life already.

 That was one of the reasons that I was not sure that I was the right person to writes this book.  Cual Guerra? not about me, it is the words of the people about their own experiences, in their own words. So it was more that I was a conduit for the stories. But read the book and see if you agree. 

Miguel:  I have more to say. Congratulations on your book. I hope that it will travel to many other countries, for example, the United States, Europe, the other countries, and the world, for this is a history of Guatemala, one history of my people, my country. I think it is very important for this is the consequence of this war that continues to effect Guatemalan society. These consequences of the war, the past, continue today. I think  your book is very important, one more book, for us and our friends.

I see this book as the first step, and the next step is for you to write your own book if you want to.

Brenda:  I agree, the best would be that the indigenous people themselves who lived this experience first-hand are the ones who do the writing… I include myself. I don’t know much because of my age, I’m too young and didn’t live that, but I really agree that it should be the real population, the ones who did live it, who write it, because in all this I understand two parts were involved, the people were divided in two groups. Now books are being written, but some leave things out, and don’t write what really happened. And I’m telling you this because this last semester I did my field practice at the Military Hospital and what they tell about what happened is different. They live in their own world and see things differently.

Maria:  Regarding writing our own book, I think that… well, at least on my family’s part, I had the personal experience I told Laurie about. But my family barely touches the subject. Well, in the past many women got involved, cousins, uncles, aunts. Maybe now writing a book can be considered because I know many people who have that intention. For example, Eliseo; for example, B. When they have the capability to write a book, I’m sure they will. The problem in the past is that we were afraid of saying things. And, in the case of my family, they are still afraid. For example, my mother doesn’t talk about these things, my aunts don’t talk about these things. In fact, they don’t know I told part of the story of my family, but it was my story, it is personal, then I told what I lived, but they don’t say anything.

Then we also need to consider that in my family some people didn’t go to school, some started school, but schools were burned down, they didn’t attend anymore. Thus it is very difficult for many people to even participate in writing a book or give us their testimonies. But I trust that now our generation, I really think so, many things are being said, people are less afraid. One feels more freedom to tell what they went through. Then, in the future there will surely be more books.

And Laurie, many thanks, really, because seriously I only spoke about all this with my mother when I was 11 years old and after that I never said anything again. Actually, I did write about it. In fact, in my computer I have the approximately 5,000 pages but, really, I had never thought about it. I think it’s the same for all of us. Then, Laurie, many thanks, really. I think this was a motivation for us to say “some day I will write my story”.

How do you think your families would feel if they read these stories in the book? Many people’s names are not the real names in the book. Most people’s names are changed. But some of yours were not changed if you wanted to use your real name.

Maria: Well, the only person that I’ve talked about this with is my sister. My sister is two years younger than me, and she remembers fewer things. She has not faced the context that indigenous people live here in Guatemala City and the environment, the social pressure there is in university, because she lives in Quiché. In a way, she is indifferent to this but, if my mother finds out, she will get scared. She would really get scared. I have aunts that even talk in hushed voices when we are in our own houses, as if suddenly we could be overheard.

But, I don’t think I will have a problem because of this. That’s why I didn’t want to give my full name, but only used “María” instead because, well, the experience is personal anyway, so I didn’t involve my family much, so I don’t think it would affect them much.

Just one more thing. When I gave my testimony, there were like three or four people… I hadn’t heard the testimony of the others until now. Then, this experience was traumatic for me. In fact, it didn’t let me fully live my childhood. That is, I was always affected by this psychological damage. Well, as a matter of fact, I needed psychological help when I was a teenager, I was young and all that. I never imagined that several people in the Fundación had stories even more traumatic than mine. I felt really bad, really, and I remembered all that, right? It hurts a lot. [Sobbing] But learning about the stories of the others made me feel better. Now I feel better. It made me feel better, it made me feel like a complete person because I realized many people had suffered much more than I did. It made me stronger, it encouraged me to go on, because I really felt bad, sometimes I even went through something like an existential crisis, because this was always on my mind. That is, they are things that are really hard to assimilate, even when you are a child or a teenager, but learning about the stories of the others made me feel, not good, but comfortable with my life and gave me the desire to go on.

Student:  I want to add something. What Maria says is indeed true. In the towns fear to talk still persists and talking in hushed voices about those things still exists. For example, in my town, because as a child I didn’t know anything about it neither did our parents tell us about it, until we started studying and they talked about it. Currently it still brings consequences, because I remember about four years ago two boys were killed over there in my town. They were hung and their bodies turned up in the shore of the lake, but they were the grandsons of those who supposedly joined the military, they were their accomplices. And people are still angry, what happened still hurts them, and they still think about revenge. This still persists. And when they speak, when these boys died, they said “what happens is…”, in a hushed voice as if whispering or gossiping, almost like hiding, they said it, “what happens is that those people deserves that because they did such and such in the past”, but they didn’t say it out in public, but rather… I was among the adults and they talked like this among themselves, but very softly. So, it is true that fear still exists and consequences and pain still exist and they still think about taking revenge regarding that situation. That is, nothing has been forgotten, because it was really painful.

Student:  Yes, the thing is, I was telling Laurie that something particular had happened in my family. In my mother’s case, she was with the guerrilla; and in my father’s case, he was with the army. And, well, in fact, some were known, but…

Student:  Then… in fact, some of us were… my grandmother lived one block away and my aunt one block away. My aunt’s house served as a buzón {mailbox}. That is, a mailbox is where people leave food and later the guerrilla comes and takes it to the camp. And my uncles were aware of that, but never said a thing, and they were military. One of my father’s nephews was also a soldier. Then, well, I didn’t have… it was the normal relationship between uncle and nephew, but after the incident when those men were assassinated, of what I saw, I could see them wearing uniforms. I was a child, six, seven, eight years old. I was a child, but I hated them, then, the same with my cousin and, in fact, when they were killed , because one of them was killed. I don’t know in what zone here in the city, but I was glad when he was killed. Then, one realizes of what kind of feelings one is dealing with, that is, being glad because someone was killed, because I had it in my mind, I remembered it all and, in fact, until today, this cousin who was part of the army also lives in the US for the past six or seven years, but I could not stand him. I could not stand him. He came on one occasion and, in fact, I don’t like him. But it is not him, it’s his past. Then, one lives with those inner resentments that are difficult to handle.

So, even in the same family, people are divided against each other?

Student:  But, to clarify. Before, for example, my uncles, they were part of the army because they were first snatched when they were young. They were snatched, they were taken away…

And in the end they got used to it. In the end they got used to it and in a way they made a career in the army, because one of my uncles achieved a high rank, I don’t remember, but it was a high rank. But in the beginning, he was snatched and taken away. Some managed to escape.  And since they were well paid, supposedly, in those times. They snatched the boys at a young age.

How old were they when they were snatched?

Student:  When they were snatched they were around 17 to 20 years old.

There is a story in the book called “Porfirio’s war”. Porfirio told me a story about boys being snatched from his school when they were 14 and 15 years old. They were teenagers and they were forced into the military. And then forced to do terrible things as soldiers.  And once they were in the military, they had to do what they were ordered to do or they’d be killed. Is that true? 

Student:  Yes. That’s true. They were victims, too.

Manuel C.: I wanted to say something. When you first asked what are we going to do with our book, in my case, my book is a gift for my father, because my father is the only person in my family who told me about that. And I think that, as Maria said, her sister is just two years younger then her. That is my case too. I am the youngest of my family and I don’t know what was happening and nobody say, nobody tell and I don’t know.

But my parents immigrated to Guatemala City, because Quiché is not a good place to live, and they took us to Guatemala City. I was born in Guatemala City. In fact, when I was two years old, we came back to Chichicastenango. That’s my case. One more thing, I think that the youngest generation don’t know about this. And in my case too. When I was younger, my mother said… my mother is the person in the family, maybe, who is more affected by this… now she discriminate against the ladinos because she thinks that all the people are the same. She thinks they are all bad.

That’s one of the reasons that she discriminates against other people, because discrimination has many aspects. Ladinos can discriminate against Maya, and Maya can discriminate against other people. So, when I was younger, I said: “Hey, but all of us are the same.” My little friends were Maya, ladinos, whatever. And then I said: “No, all of us are the same”, but reading about the history, listening a little bit of what they said, now I can understand why they feel that way. The young people who say the same that I did  when I was young, it’s is because they don’t know. They simply don’t know what happened. That’s the reason.

Student:  And, I think that really, I want to communicate this to you, that we have to be aware that this is happening to us. Most of the people who are here, most of us who are here, live in Guatemala City and it would be like living a fantasy if we believe that this didn’t affect us and there are no consequences. I personally think that there are also problems, that is, walking in the city is not the same as walking in our towns, with a majority of indigenous people, one can feel awkward. One feels discriminated against. In Guatemala City it is even worse. I really believe that it would be a real pity if young people do not understand that what happened is not in the past, we still have consequences and discrimination is the most evident. I think this is what happens. We have to open our eyes and realize it. I say that things are still real today.

Until 1996, with the signing of the Peace Accords and, well, since then we are noticing that small changes are really taking place. There are little changes. In fact, we are living one of those changes.

Brenda:  What could we do so that these changes that have occurred, the small changes that have occurred regarding discrimination keep getting better. That is, the further eradication of discrimination.

Johanna:  First, to comment about the book. I read a little and it was a good idea, a very good idea, to not change anything and to have written exactly what people said and then to make your comments, because it captures what they really experienced. And there are books that.–Miguel mentioned some–that tell the truth. I didn’t live any of it, but my parents did tell me some things, but not much because they don’t want to remember and because they know there is not as much problem as there used to be. It was worse in Alta Verapaz and Baja Verapaz, the most affected was Baja Verapaz, in Rabinal, .. most people from Rabinal moved to the US, because there was a lot of trouble there. In my case, in San Cristóbal, the most affected were those living in the villages. All the boys were recruited. They didn’t ask them, they only looked to see if there was a boy or a man and they took them. They didn’t ask them if they wanted to be with the military or with the guerrilla, they were forced to join. They didn’t have any intention of killing. Their intention was not to harm, but they were forced, many of them, and seeing that, other people also decided to join the guerrilla because they had no other choice, they had to defend themselves from so much harm. The way they tell it, it was difficult. And it is a very good idea to write a book about the people who did live it or ask older people to tell their experiences, because there are some who are willing to tell their stories and they are the ones who lived it more intensely. And about how to stop, or diminish discrimination, I think the fact of not feeling bad about wearing the traje with which we represent our town. In University, there in Cobán, very few women wear the traje and everybody seems surprised to see someone wearing it and I think we shouldn’t be… we should be proud of what we are and we shouldn’t discriminate  against others either, because then we would be contributing to…maintaining a vicious cycle.

Yes, because the fact that we only think of ourselves means that we are also discriminating. That’s all.

A.G.: I didn’t live any personal experience, because I think I was not born yet back then, but what Brenda and Maria said about our grandparents still not wanting to talk about it is true, because in my family my two uncles were recruited by the army, my mother’s brothers, but they escaped. The thing is that, when they went to the villages, I think they killed people, but… well, in fact, one of my uncles seems to hate all the soldiers, although he was part of it. I think they still keep silent about it and, in fact, in my house, although my uncles and my grandfather, my mother’s father, lived it, they never talked with us about it. Now, I had the opportunity to meet in a boarding school in Chimaltenango several compañeros who were Mexican repatriates after the Peace Accords. There is something very important is to realize that, like in the case of my friends, I know these have been or were very difficult experiences because many of them were orphans and lived these experiences first hand when they were kids. Some were saved by their grandmothers or by people who knew them.

Then, something very important is that, in spite of the scars they have and in spite of how hard their lives have been, having to leave their country or living in fear, they have been really strong people and worthy of admiration because, like Maria, they have made the best of themselves. Perhaps it has been difficult, emotionally and in other ways, but they go on with their lives and I think they are incredible people, not only young people, but also people who lived in those times, like our grandparents or the parents of some of us. Then, I think it is worthy of admiration the fact that they managed to overcome the barriers and have studied and have developed personally regardless of their experiences and the conditions of some families in their towns after all that happened. And I think that yes, the consequences of what happened are evident in the fear some people experience or in the feelings they keep inside that may well be resentments, feelings that are hurting these people because of the unpleasant, really painful experiences they have gone through. That’s all.

Manuel C.: I am looking for my spiritual guide. Because I know that I need some help, maybe not directly, but I am a consequence too…

When do the consequences end? And how does one stop it?

Manuel C.: I think never. We have to work to stop that and to do the right things at the right time.

Brenda: But I think that there will always be some resentments because, whether we want or not, those who talk tell about it to their children, to their grandchildren, then there are others who do not talk. And, for example, in my case, although I didn’t live it, but they did tell me and, when I listen, I feel that people, our people, suffered a lot. So, I don’t know, this resentment comes to me from nowhere, even though I don’t know if it’s good or bad, but what my people went through hurts me and yes, really, and I’m being honest, I don’t like soldiers, even when I work there. Yes, I still work with them.

Miguel:  I have an antimilitary mentality. That is, I could never be part or vote for a military person. I couldn’t.

The experience of the community, the experience of the guerrilla and the experience of the army one way or the other, they are three totally different points of view. Totally different. And if you realize, the military movement originated from the guerrilla movement. If you take a look at history, compare books and documents, the guerrilla movement is clearly military. And comparing military life with community life, you reach a point where you say, in my case, now Maria closed a circle that I had almost forgotten about, because sometimes it is hard to acknowledge that one, due to some particular things in my life I decided to study nutrition, because I felt “well, either I do something or die trying”, for my society, for my town. But let’s leave it at that, because there are things in your past that you need to erase, you need to say… well, to replace what one way or the other your past did to your own town.

Then, sometimes it is different, right this would take all night to tell. Because you and your family could have lived with a military mind, you could have lived in the community environment or you could have lived the case of the guerrilla… or like some particular families who lived the three cases, who participated in both. Then, it depends, it depends on where did you live and how have you cleaned your thoughts and… well, those are the three points of view. Now, what can I do for myself,  because in my case, I love my grandmother because I know why she is here, I know why she has me, which sometimes is part of talking with your family, talking with your family is knowing your past, because you know why you are here at this moment, why you are studying, where you live, why you are here, why not from there, what is your last name, what your last name means, what your second last name means,why you were called like that. You know all your past when you talk with your family. It is very complex, but it is part of our history, part of what we will live with all our lives and it is your decision what you will do next: either be a better person and contribute to make a better society or to go backwards. It is a point where you decide to move forward or to go backwards or stay where you are and do nothing. That is, totally different directions and you have to make a decision of which one to take.

And congratulations, Maria. In A.G.s words: “not just anybody would do it, not just anybody has the guts, there are people who have died because they spoke.” And it should be acknowledged, you and everybody else who are in the book. I’m interested in learning about the ideas of other people, I like knowing their ideas. Laurie, That’s why I asked you about Guatemalan authors and US authors, because they see us in a different way and we see ourselves in a different way.

Just a comment about what Miguel said about there being three points of view: the community, the military and the guerrilla. I think that we should understand the three points of view,  because I think that throughout history people in our towns have always faced difficulties, opportunities have been denied to them. Supposedly, the guerrilla originated from a quest for equal rights and opportunities. But, as usual, people in power don’t allow others to live in a human condition, like in many communities, so it is difficult because, even when things change, they have to change much more in their roots. It is not impossible, but we have to see not only what is going on now, but also why this issue of violence came into being. Because in our towns our history has always been difficult.

Student:  Since 500 years ago. Since the invasion.

Miguel:  That is, our origin itself was perfect, because it was only us. The problem was Spain intruding. Because Spain brought the… That is, our origin was ideal, but Spain came and the problem started there. We were better off.

AG: We think about how how the the Maya people have suffered a lot of things, things like that problem that we lived and you are writing about.

Brenda: What opportunities or what ways or how easy it would be for us to get information about the three groups. So, I think that only through books because people don’t…

Miguel: Testimonies, but it’s not easy to have people speak that much… our people, the military and other people.

Well, that is complex, because… you know I had a friend, his name is Pichia the other was Mateo L. and they both can tell you the three points of view, because they have lived the three points of view. But it is in rare occasions that people have had the opportunity, that is, not the opportunity but that terrible experience. And talking with them… they tell you about it.

This is my opinion from the reading that I’ve done about this time. The thing is that this is a responsibility, but since Laurie is open minded, I feel that there is a kind of responsibility that also falls on the US because of the invasion, because if it weren’t for the United Fruit Company they would be fighting the guerrilla movement demands with the coffee plantations, the guerrilla movement would have never happened.

The United States, the CIA. That is, I’m telling you, it’s a subject that we as Guatemalans blame each other, but what did the foreigners do? It was part of what set it off.

Brenda: And that is precisely what Laurie was talking about yesterday, she said that the US really financed…

Yes, the Guatemalan military was trained and supported by the United States. And Israel provided the weapons like helicopters. And this is why I feel so strongly that I want this book published in the United States, because Americans don’t know about the US involvement.

One of the other volunteers is a professor at a college in the US. She has a video camera and wants to ask if you would like to give a testimonio on video, because it’s very powerful to have a face along with a story.  Maybe we could take some video back to the States and develop an educational program for high school or college students to help them understand your experiences. 

Miguel: It’s like, for example, the war to Iraq, which is what is currently going on is a country they are invading because of their oil. What consequences will there be in Iraq 25 or 30 years from now after the US invasion?

I want to tell you something. We are talking about this thing as this thing were in the past. This thing is not in the past. In these days, we can’t talk about openly, freely because I don’t know if they are just worries that people have, but people think yet that there are spies. That there are spies in Guatemala.

Manuel C: Yes, yes. When you invited us to participate in this, I felt a little bit of fear. Yes, I was a little scared, because I think, ok, I will do… maybe tomorrow.

Maria:  I understand that this weekend you are thinking of filming everything for educational purposes, that is, testimonies of my case and the case of other students. Well, personally, honestly I’m still afraid, so I’m not sure about what I want to do, I am sure about many of my purposes, of my goals, but I wouldn’t like a video because I think that… I’m afraid of involving my family in the future, because you never know. Things are getting worse all the time all around the world, so I understand their good intention of taking it to another country and letting them know about the history, our history, our cases and all that, but I think that… well, I don’t know, I’m still afraid. I’m still afraid. I participated in the book and I’m very grateful to Laurie. Well, in fact, I only appear as María, but for reasons of security. I think we are all different, and I wouldn’t like to participate in the video.

For your family or for yourself?

Maria:  Myself and my family.

Well, I think that… I’d have to think about it. That is, I’ll think about it because I need to analyze this. Why? Because I can’t involve other people. Then, well, one thing is me and another thing is my family. I don’t want to affect my family. So, you love your dear ones, some day I will have a family of my own… so…I’ll think about it.

Thank you all for your openness and honesty.  I am very touched .

Miguel: And congratulations to you.

K’in

Mi nombre es K’in …..Con respecto a lo que paso con mi familia durante la guerra interna en Guatemala, lo que yo recuerdo, o mas bien dicho, lo que mi mama me cuenta, es que yo tenia un par de semanas de haber nacido cuando toda mi familia tuvo que emigrar de Santa Cruz del Quiche para la ciudad capital porque mi padre era promotor de salud en la aldea donde ellos vivian y de alguna manera el estaba muy involucrado con actividades de tipo religioso en Santa Cruz del Quiche y por esa razon estaban incluidos dentro de la llamada “lista negra” que utilizaba el ejercito. Estaba incluido mi padre, mis 3 hermanos mayores, mi mama no, pero ellos decidieron que todos emigraramos hacia la ciudad capital por seguridad. Entonces a partir de esa epoca, mas o menos en el 80, 81, no recuerdo exactamente, estuvimos en la ciudad capital. Mi padre tuvo que empezar a trabajar en la venta de frutas, verduras y cosas asi. Se dedico a ser comerciante y mis hermanos mayores tambien lo ayudaban y mi madre se quedaba en la casa con nosotros los mas pequenos, a cuidarnos y a realizar las labores domesticas. No teniamos varias semanas de llegar a la capital cuando mis abuelos, los padres de mi papa, fueron masacrados junto con un primo mio, en Santa Cruz del Quiche. Y un par de meses despues, fueron y secuestraron a mi padre, el desaparecio y hasta la fecha no sabemos nada, si fallecio o no. Despues de que fue secuestrado mi padre, mis hermanos mayores no tenian otra opcion mas que unirse a la guerrilla. Tres de ellos se unieron. Uno de ellos tuvo que salir al exilio a Mexico tambien y los 4 mas pequenos nos quedamos con mi mama. Una de mis hermanas que se habia unido a la guerrilla resulto embarazada y por esa razon tuvo que regresar a la capital con nosotros. Ella estuvo casi ocupando el lugar de mi papa, de un lugar a otro, nunca vivimos en un lugar permanente sino que pasabamos una semana en un lugar, unos dias en otro, etc. Hasta que decidimos residir casi permanentemente en la zona de la capital. Por las mismas cuestiones de seguridad tambien porque mi mama tenia noticias frecuentes de que estaba el ejercito viendo la manera de acabar con el resto de los miembros. Entonces ella tuvo que decidir dejar a mis 2 hermanos de los 4 mas pequenos, que somos 2 varones y 2 mujeres. Entonces a los 2 varones los dejo en un internado. Ellos estuvieron alla aproximadamente 10, 12 anos. Y a mi hermana pequena y a mi tambien nos tuvo que dejar en un internado. Estuvimos ahí 3 anos y medio, casi 4. Ella tuvo que trabajar con una organización de desplazados por la guerra. Estuvo ahí por varios anos y fue una activista de esa organización. Ya luego decidio que tenia que reunirnos a los hermanos pequenos y de nuevo llego y fue a sacarnos del internado a mi hermana pequena y a mi. Estuvimos ahí con ella. Mis otros hermanos si quedaron permanentemente ahí. Pasaron varios anos hasta que se dio lo de la firma de la paz. Recientemente conoci a mis hermanos mayores. Hasta hace poco los conozco. Ellos regresaron, se reincorporaron a la vida “normal” podriamos decir y hasta la fecha yo pienso, no se si sea realmente esa la causa, pero en mi familia no exista una union familiar, cada quien agarra por su lado, cada quien hace lo que mas quiere o cosas asi. Pero cada quien tiene presente que debe continuar la lucha en cuanto a defender lo justo tanto para la familia como para el resto de la comunidad porque ese fue el trabajo que inicio mi papa en Santa Cruz del Quiche. Nada mas es lo que tengo que decir.

 

K’in

My name is K’in. In regards to what happened to my family during the war in Guatemala, what I remember, or better said, what my mother tells me, is that I was just a few weeks old when my whole family had to leave Santa Cruz del Quiche for the capital because my father was a health provider in the town where they lived and he was very involved with religious activities, which had them in the “black list” that the army had. My father and my 3 older siblings were on the list. My mother wasn’t, but they decided that we all went to the capital for security reasons.

Then, from that time, around 1980, 1981, we were in the capital. My father had to start working selling fruits, vegetables, and things like that. He had to do business and my older brothers also helped him, while my mother stayed home with us, the younger ones, and took care of house chores. We hadn’t been in the capital very long, when my grandparents, on my father’s side, and a cousin, were massacred in Santa Cruz. A few months later, they kidnapped my father, he disappeared, and, to this date, we don’t know anything about him, whether or not he died.

After this, my older siblings had no other option but to join the guerrilla. Three of them joined it, and one of them had to go to Mexico for exile. The 4 younger ones stayed with my mother. One of my sisters that had join the guerrilla got pregnant and had to come back to the capital with us. She was doing my father’s job. From one place to the other, we were never very long at one place, one week in one place, a few days in another one, etc., until we decided to reside permanently in the capital, for the same security reasons because my mother heard constant news that the army wanted to killed the whole family.

So, she decided to leave my 2 young brothers in a boarding school. They were there for about 10, 12 years. Also, my young sister and I were left at another boarding school. We were there for 3 1/2, almost 4 years. My mother worked with an organization for the displaced from the war. For several years she was an activist there. Then, she decided she had to get the 4 younger siblings together again, and she came back and got my sister and me from the boarding school, but my other 2 young brothers were left at the boarding school where they were.

After many years, when the peace was signed, I met my older siblings. I only got to know them recently. They came back to a “normal” life, so to say, and I think that that may be the reason that we don’t have a close family relationship. Each one  is doing their own thing.

However, we all know we have to continue fighting for justice for the family and the community since it was the job my father started in Santa Cruz del Quiche. That’s all I have to say.

 

 

Kaqla discussing Cual Guerra?

After reading the book, my first impression or my first feeling is the importance of keeping the memory and to rescue the memory. Because with the civil war, we lost, we lost our process, we lost our life. But basically, we lost our opportunity to talk and to say what is going on in our life, what we were feeling because of  the civil war, because  of oppression, because of repression. And I think we didn’t have the time to reflect and to think where are we going, you know.

Because people were so busy trying to survive?

Exactly. So with this opportunity to talk and to remember, because this is the importance of  memory, to remember that we were living… I mean, we were living in this time, you know, and we have to remember what we felt, you know, we cannot continue in the life forgetting or losing this part of our memory. So, I say it is important to keep the memory. Not just for the next generation, but for all the world, for us, for our dignity, for our existence. We have to remember where we were, what we were feeling. So it is important for us, and then, in my opinion, we can do something with the memory of the people who died during the civil war. But we need to recognize ourselves first.

What about the people who say that the memories and remembering the history are too painful?

I agree, and I think that it is so painful, but I think it’s better to live seeing and touching this pain, because after you can talk, you feel better about yourself, I mean, it’s part of your life and you need to talk about this .The first time or the first times can be very painful, but then I think it can get easier. And the pain is part of our life and it’s the most hard part of our life and sometimes we cannot see it, you know, we don’t want to see it, we don’t want to recognize it in our life; we just want to go on, walking straight, and not turn around to see ourselves with our pain, with our bad feelings. But there are good things, too. So, I think it’s necessary.

The reality is that even if you don’t talk about it, it doesn’t mean that you don’t feel pain.

Exactly. Well, my Mom talks sometimes, you know. This morning she was remembering some parts of our suffering in our life then. And she talks about things, but just for a little bit. I mean, some nights she wakes up and starts to talk about my sister who “disappeared” or sometimes about my father who was murdered. And then she stops and sleeps. I mean, you just have to listen to her, you know. And it’s just s little bit. But I can see that it’s different now from five years ago, or ten years ago.

She’s talking more now. Maybe just five minutes, or one minute, and maybe just to remember something, like “Oh, this food was your sister’s favorite food” and “I remember one time”, like that…

And maybe if you start to ask her, or something like that, she’s like… she’ll stop talking, you know. And my feeling about this book is… one is that I thought that I have all the perspective of the painful parts of the human history, but when I read the book, I say no, this is more than I was thinking, you know. I feel closer to the people (who told their stories) and I feel that it’s a history of all of us, you know. I feel that I can share more, maybe through the book I could understand the people and share with them, you know, that I’m with them and they are with me. Even though maybe we never talk about this, never.

In my testimonio I said that we lost things and maybe will never recover, you know, but now I can think that we are building again together, you know, it’s the opportunity to building again and to say yes, we had this situation, we lost many things, but we are living now, we are alive and we are rebuilding, too. I think it’s necessary to continue and to look to the future and to see what we want as an individual, as a Maya movement, as, you know, as a struggle, the Mayan struggle. We have to see the past and to talk about the past. And I think that’s what’s most important about this book. And I think it’s the first book to talk about young people’s experiences, not political. This does not mean that young people don’t have political positions, but I think we are talking about our experiences when we were very young or little boys or little girls, you know, little people. So, I think this is the most important, to give a voice to us to say what we were feeling during that time. Not now, that time.

That’s exactly what you said to me, and I remember the moment…It was way before I’d even written the book. You said, “thank you for bringing the story of young Maya people out into the world”. And I remember standing there with you, thinking,  “I can’t do that, that’s too hard, I don’t know how to do that”. And with your help and with the help of all of the other people giving their testimonies, we were able to do it. 

You articulated that very early on, way before I knew what we were doing. And that catapulted me forward into making it happen. What I hope will happen with the book is that we find a way to get it into the school system, so that other young people will learn about and be able to understand what the real history is. You said before that the book is simple, it’s written in simple language; that’s because that’s the way people told it, it’s not theoretical. These are the voices of the people who lived the experience.

I agree. My Mayan guides told me that the pain can purify you, and he said that our life is like hilo,(thread) and sometimes we have to wind and unwind it.

And some parts of our life are not too good, are not too happy, you know, but when we take the pain, I feel that we can do this, we can purify our soul. And then I can remember more clearly the other people who cannot talk anymore because they died. And the history is in Cual Guerra?, many people talk about friends, about parents, about brothers, about fathers, about sisters.

Maybe before they could not talk, or they don’t want to talk about this ever, but now they are actually recognizing their struggle. I mean, with the testimonios of the students, they are recognizing not only their own lives, they are recognizing the life of the family, the struggle of the family. And I think it is not necessary that they have political implications.  It’s their everyday life. So I think this is, for me, the most important of the book.

Do you think it’s possible to get the book embedded into the educational system so that more people would read it? And what do you think would be the best way to distribute it?

I think it’s difficult but it can be a goal,  because, for example, in the Peace Accords one of the commitments was that the Truth Commission Reports be distributed through the official educational system.

And has that happened?

No. No. And it’s a commitment of the government, you know, because the UN said that it’s necessary for the new generation to know what happened in Guatemala and, actually, the first recommendation was from the REMHI, the book from Archbishop Gerardi, Guatemala, Never Again! The UN said that is necessary to share, to talk about this. It hasn’t happened because this official system is not interested. One side is not interested in talking about this; the other side is interested in hiding, you know.

So, even though there is the mandate that this information be disseminated, it hasn’t happened. So, do you think that Cual Guerra? would fall into the same category, that the government would not want the book distribute?

We can try it. Editorial Cholsamaj probably has contacts with the Cultural Ministry, and maybe they would talk with the Educational Ministry, and we can see. And maybe it could be distributed through the Rigoberta Menchú Foundation, for example. Or the Presidential Commission against Racism.

And, you know Ricardo Falla? He is a priest, who was with the CPR (Communities of Population in Resistance) during the civil war and, actually, he has started to write about young people. Because he said that the last time we had the histories about the civil war it was just about adults, but what happened with the kids? And last year he made a presentation about young people.

The book is about how they are living now. Young people in Mayan communities where the civil war was very hard, for example, in Ixcán or Quiché. What’s going on with them, you know. So, he was thinking about a strategy to share and to send the books to more young people…

I think Cual Guerra? tells it’s such an important part of history that you all had the courage to speak about. It’s so important to get it out and have people read it. So that’s the next step. 

 

 

 

 

Miguel, Brenda, Maria, Manuel C, Johanna, A.G.

Student: Bueno, entonces resulta que con B. es bien interesante, porque se ve que en él hay marcas que hacen que sea la persona que es hoy. O sea, se ve que es una persona que tiene algo de lo que hablábamos la vez anterior: posttraumatic… I don’t know… Cómo era? Traumas… posttraumatic after… I don’t know. Acerca de la mente. Pero a pesar de eso pues es realmente gratificante verlo en su diario vivir como persona, tratando de disfrutar la vida después de lo que pasó. Para mí esa es una de las cosas más bonitas del libro y, bueno, convivir con una persona que está mencionada en el libro.

¿Conocen a alguien con quien hayan platicado alguna experiencia sobre lo que ha pasado? ¿Han platicado con alguien así? ¿Les han contado algo? Que lo cuenten acá. Lo cuentan en español y lo traducimos al inglés.

Dice ella que… bueno Miguel le preguntó que… no, como una comparación entre la forma de los escritores guatemaltecos que han hablado de toda esa historia, como seis autores mencionó él, y es diferente la opinión de una norteamericana quien no vivió nada de eso más que escuchó, experimentó a través de otras personas. Entonces Laurie dice que sí está consciente de eso, verdad, pero ella no escribió sus propias ideas, sino que recopiló todo lo que dijeron los compañeros, y no es su experiencia sino que las experiencias de cada una de las personas que participaron y las plasmó en el libro pues, no hubo nada… ella no involucró nada sobre sus propios pensamientos, sino que fueron casi…todo lo que dijeron los compañeros, todo fue plasmado en el libro. Todo. 

Laurie dice, bueno… ¿Les digo lo que dijo Laurie o les digo lo que dijo Miguel? Bueno, entonces Laurie dice que el libro que ella escribió es un paso o como una semilla donde nosotros podemos empezar a pensar, a escribir nuestro propio libro. Nosotros deberíamos de escribir nuestro libro y ese sería un libro como que real, donde plasmaríamos lo que realmente pasó. Pero eso es como una motivación la que ella nos da para que nosotros podamos escribir. Y estoy de acuerdo, qué mejor que la propia gente indígena que vivió realmente esa experiencia escribamos… Me involucro. Yo no sé mucho por la edad que tengo, verdad, estoy muy joven y casi no viví yo eso, verdad, pero sí estoy realmente de acuerdo que la verdadera población quienes vivieron eso lo escriban, porque como en eso, yo entiendo que hubieron dos partes, verdad, se dividió el pueblo en dos partes. Ahora se escriben libros, pero algunos buscan, por su conveniencia, omiten cosas, verdad, y no escriben realmente lo que es. Y les digo yo esto porque yo en este último semestre estuve en mis prácticas en el Hospital Militar y ellos hablan diferente sobre lo que pasó.

Maria: Con respecto a escribir el propio libro, yo creo que… bueno, al menos de parte de mi familia, tuve la experiencia personal que le conté a Laurie, pues mi familia casi no habla de eso. Bueno, en el pasado se involucraron muchas mujeres, primos, primas, tíos, tías, entonces a veces tal vez… bueno ahora tal vez se piensa en escribir un libro porque yo sé que muchos tienen esa intención. Por ejemplo, Eliseo, por ejemplo, B. Ellos, cuando tengan ya la capacidad de escribir un libro, estoy segura que lo van a hacer. El problema en el pasado es que teníamos miedo de decir las cosas. Entonces, en el caso de mi familia, aún tiene miedo. O sea, mi mamá, ella no habla de esas cosas, mis tías no hablan de esas cosas. De hecho, ellos no saben que yo dije parte de la historia de mi familia, pero fue mi historia, es personal, entonces yo conté lo que yo viví, pero ellos no dicen nada.

Entonces hay que tomar en cuenta también que parte de mi familia algunos no fueron a la escuela, otros iniciaron la escuela, pero incendiaron las escuelas, ya no fueron a la escuela. Entonces es bien difícil de parte de muchas personas que tengan… o incluso participar para escribir un libro o darnos sus testimonios. Pero yo confío que ya nuestra generación, yo pienso que sí, ya muchas cosas se están aclarando, la gente tiene menos miedo. Uno se siente más libre de decir lo que vivió. Entonces, en el futuro seguramente van a haber libros. Y Laurie, muchas gracias, de verdad, porque en serio yo sólo hablé de eso con mi mamá cuando tenía 11 años y después ya nunca dije nada. En realidad, sí lo escribí, de hecho en mi computadora yo tengo la… bueno yo no sé… pero Pablo, mi novio, se ha dado cuenta que yo escribo cómo me siento. Entonces tengo aproximadamente unas 5,000 páginas en mi computadora, pero en realidad nunca se me había ocurrido, verdad, entonces yo creo que todos hacemos lo mismo, todos hacemos lo mismo y sí seguramente. Entonces Laurie, muchas gracias, de verdad. Yo creo que esto fue una motivación para nosotros como para decir “voy a escribir algún día mi historia”.

Que piensan que van a pensar sus familias si leen las historias en el libro?  Los nombres de muchas personas no son los nombres que aparecen en el libro.  Se han cambiado los nombres de muchas personas. 

María: Pues, yo a la única que le he hablado de esto fue a mi hermana. Entonces, mi hermana, de cierto modo, es dos años más pequeña que yo, entonces ella se acuerda de menos cosas. Entonces ella no se ha enfrentado al contexto que los indígenas viven acá en Guatemala y del ambiente, de la presión social que existe en la universidad, porque ella vive en Quiché. Entonces, a ella de cierto modo le es indiferente pero, si mi mamá se entera, se asustaría. Realmente se asustaría. Tengo tías que incluso hablan en voz bajita cuando estamos en nuestras propias casas, así como que de repente nos pueden oír. Entonces, no creo que tenga problema por eso. Por esa razón no quise dar mi nombre completo sino simplemente utilicé “María” porque, bueno, de todas formas la experiencia acá es personal, entonces no involucro tanto a mi familia, pero, pues, yo creo que no les afectaría tanto. Otra cosa…

Sólo otra cosa. Cuando yo di mi testimonio, esa vez habíamos como tres o cuatro personas, entre ellos estaba Juan Carlos, Flory creo que estaba también… Entonces, en realidad el ambiente…

Yo no oí el testimonio de los demás sino hasta ahora. Entonces, esta experiencia para mí fue traumática. De hecho, no me hizo vivir en plenitud mi niñez. O sea, yo mantuve siempre estos daños psicológicos. Bueno, yo de hecho necesité ayuda psicológica cuando era adolescente, yo era joven y todo. Entonces, yo no imaginé que varios de la fundación tenían historias incluso más traumáticas que la mía. Yo me sentía fatal, en serio, y yo recordarme de todo eso, verdad. Me duele mucho. Pero, ver la historia de todos los demás me hizo sentir bien. Ahora me siento mejor. Pienso que somos… Me hizo sentir mejor, me hizo sentir como una persona completa porque me di cuenta de que muchas personas habían sufrido mucho más que yo. Entonces, me dio fortaleza, ánimos para seguir, porque realmente me sentía mal, incluso muchas veces pasaba como una crisis existencial, porque siempre estaba en mi mente. O sea, son cosas que cuesta bastante asimilarlas, incluso cuando se es niño y adolescente, pero conocer las historias de los demás me hizo sentir, no bien, sino que conformarme con mi vida y ganas de seguir adelante.

Student: Sólo quiero agregar algo. Lo que dice Maria sí es cierto. En los pueblos, aún, no es mucho, pero todavía persiste el miedo de poder hablar y eso de hablar muy quedito sobre esas cosas todavía existe. Por ejemplo, en mi pueblo, verdad, porque yo de niña no sabía nada de eso ni los papás nos hablaban nada, hasta que uno fue estudiando, verdad, y hablaban de eso. Y actualmente todavía trae consecuencias, porque recuerdo hace como cuatro años asesinaron a dos muchachos allá en mi pueblo. Los ahorcaron y aparecieron en la orilla del lago, pero son nietos de los que supuestamente se unieron a los militares, fueron cómplices de ellos, verdad. Y todavía la gente sigue como que ardida, todavía les duele lo que les pasó, verdad, y piensan todavía tomar venganza. Entonces, todavía persiste eso. Y cuando hablan, cuando murieron estos muchachos, decían “lo que pasa…”, así quedito entre como susurros o como chismes, así, pero casi que escondido, lo decían, verdad, “lo que pasa es que esa gente se merece eso porque hicieron tal cosa en el pasado”, verdad, pero no lo decían así públicamente, sino que… yo estaba entre la gente grande, verdad, y hablaban así entre ellos mismos, pero muy quedito. Entonces, sí es cierto que todavía existe ese miedo, verdad, y todavía existe consecuencia y dolor y todavía piensan en tomar venganza sobre esa situación. O sea que no se ha olvidado nada, porque realmente sí fue muy doloroso, verdad.

Student: Sí, pues, la cosa está en que, bueno, yo le contaba a Laurie que se había dado una cosa particular en mi familia. En el caso de mi mamá era guerrilla y en el caso de mi papá era ejército. Y, bueno, de hecho, se conocían algunos, pero…

Student: Entonces… y de hecho, algunos éramos… mi abuelita vivía a una cuadra y mi tía a una cuadra. La casa de mi tía servía de buzón. O sea, un buzón es donde llegan a dejar alimentos y luego la guerrilla llega y se los lleva al campamento militar, verdad. Y mis tíos se daban cuenta de eso, pero nunca dijeron nada, y eran militares. Un sobrino de mi papá también era militar. Entonces, bueno, yo no tenía… pues era la relación normal de tío, pero después de ese incidente cuando asesinaron a estos señores de lo que vi, yo los miraba con el uniforme. O sea yo era una niña, seis, siete, ocho años, verdad. Era una niña, pero yo los odiaba, entonces, igual a mi primo, y de hecho, cuando los asesinaron, porque a uno de ellos asesinaron, lo asesinaron aquí… no sé en qué zona de aquí de la capital, pero yo me alegré cuando lo mataron. Entonces, uno se da cuenta de qué ciertos sentimientos maneja, o sea, alegrarse porque mataron a alguien, porque yo tenía en la mente, recordaba todo eso, y de hecho, hasta la fecha, este primo que perteneció al ejército también vive en Estados Unidos desde hace como seis o siete años, pero yo no lo podía ver. Yo no lo podía ver. Vino en una ocasión y, de hecho, no me cae bien. Pero no es él, sino es su pasado. Entonces, uno vive con esos resentimientos internos que cuesta un poquito manejarlos.

Entonces, aún en la misma familia, la gente está dividida? 

Student: Pero, para aclarar. Antes, por ejemplo, mis tíos, ellos pertenecieron al ejército porque inicialmente los agarraron cuando eran jóvenes. Los agarraron, se los llevaron…

Y como eran los mejores pagados, supuestamente, en ese tiempo.

Student: Ahhh, cuando se los llevaron! Tenían como 17 a 20 años.

Hay una historia en el libro, se llama “La guerra de Porfirio”.  Él me contó la historia de que agarraron a niños de su escuela, cuando tenían 14 y 15 años.  Eran adolescentes.  Les obligaron a estar con el ejército.  Y les obligaron a hacer cosas terribles como soldados.  Y una vez que estaban con el ejército, tenían que hacerlo o los matarían.  ¿Es cierto eso?

Student: Eran víctimas.

Y, bueno, creo que realmente, con esto se los quiero comunicar a ustedes, que tenemos que estar conscientes de que eso nos pasa. La mayoría de gente que está aquí, de los que estamos aquí, vivimos en Guatemala y sería como vivir en una fantasía si creemos que eso no nos afectó y no hay consecuencias de eso. Yo creo que, para mí, hay problemas también, o sea, caminar en la ciudad no es lo mismo que caminar en nuestros pueblos, incluso en nuestros pueblos, cuando uno no está, digamos, con una mayoría de gente indígena, uno se puede sentir mal. Uno se siente discriminado. En Guatemala es peor. Entonces, yo creo realmente que sería una tristeza real si la gente joven no comprende que lo que pasó no es que haya pasado, tenemos consecuencias aún y la discriminación es lo más evidente. Creo que es lo que pasa. Sólo tenemos que abrir los ojos y darnos cuenta de eso. Dije que las cosas están reales hoy. Eso es el resumen…

Student: Hasta el año 96, con la firma de los Acuerdos de Paz, y, bueno, hasta estos años estamos sintiendo que realmente hay pequeños cambios. There are little changes. We can… In fact, we are living one of that changes.

Brenda: Qué podríamos hacer nosotros para que esos cambios que se han dado, los pequeños cambios que se han dado contra la discriminación siga mejorando. O sea, se erradique más la discriminación.

Johanna: Primero, comentar sobre el libro. Lo leí un poco y fue una muy buena idea, eso… el no haber cambiado nada sino haber escrito tal y como ellos lo dijeron y comentarlo usted, porque se plasma lo que realmente ellos vivieron. Y, hay libros que… Miguel Ángel habló sobre algunos, que sí son ciertos. Yo no viví nada de eso, pero mis papás sí me contaban cosas, pero no cuentan mayor cosa porque, o sea, ya no quieren recordarlo y también porque sí saben que ya no hay tanto problema porque donde fue peor, en Alta Verapaz y Baja Verapaz, el peor lugar afectado fue Baja Verapaz, en Rabinal, mucha gente… la mayoría de la gente de Rabinal vive en los Estados Unidos, porque hubo mucho problema ahí. En mi caso, en San Cristóbal, la gente más afectada fue la de las aldeas. Todos los muchachos eran reclutados. No se les preguntaba, sino sólo miraban si había un hijo varón o un hombre y se lo llevaban. No le preguntaban si quería estar del lado de los militares o de los guerrilleros, sino que ellos tenían que apoyarlos. Ellos mataron sin querer. Ellos no era su intención hacer daño, pero ellos fueron obligados, muchos de ellos, y viendo eso, otras personas también recurrieron a unirse a la guerrilla porque no tenían de otra, tenían que defenderse de tanto daño. A cómo lo cuentan, fue algo difícil. Y es muy buena idea lo de escribir un libro acerca de personas que sí lo vivieron o preguntar a personas mayores que ellos cuenten sus experiencias, porque hay algunos que sí la cuentan y son quienes más la vivieron. Y sobre cómo hacer de que ya no… o disminuya la discriminación, pienso que el hecho de no sentirse mal con vestir el traje, el traje que uno representa de su pueblo. En la universidad ahí en el Cobán, casi nadie utiliza el traje y todos se sorprenden al ver a alguien utilizarlo y pienso que no habría… hay que estar orgulloso de lo que uno es y no discriminar uno también a los demás, porque si no contribuiríamos a…A mantener el círculo vicioso.

Student: Sí, porque el hecho de que nosotros también sólo nosotros significa que también estamos discriminando. Solamente.

A.G.: Yo no viví ninguna experiencia personal, porque creo que no había nacido en ese entonces, pero lo que decía Brenda y Maria de que los abuelos callan todavía eso es verdad, porque en mi familia mis dos tíos fueron reclutados por el ejército, los hermanos de mi mamá, pero ellos se escaparon. El asunto es que, cuando iban a las aldeas, creo que mataron personas, pero… bueno, de hecho, uno de mis tíos como que odia a todos los soldados, aunque él haya sido parte de eso. Entonces, creo que todavía guardan mucho silencio acerca de eso y, de hecho, en mi casa, aunque vivieron esos mis tíos y mi abuelo, el papá de mi mamá, nunca nos hablaron de eso. Ahora, yo tuve la oportunidad de conocer en la escuela de un internado en Chimaltenango a varios compañeros que fueron… son repatriados mexicanos después de los Acuerdos de Paz y algo que es muy importante, o que para mí es importante, es darme cuenta que, como en el caso de Maria o de P. o M., que así se llaman mis amigos, sé que han sido o fueron experiencias muy difíciles porque muchos de ellos, o en caso de ellos dos, eran huérfanos totalmente y vivieron en carne propia cuando niños esas experiencias. Unos fueron salvados por sus abuelas o gente que los conocía. Entonces, algo muy importante es que yo creo que, a pesar de las cicatrices que tienen y de lo difícil que ha sido su vida, al salir de su patria o vivir con miedo han sido personas realmente fuertes y dignas de admirar, porque como Maria se han superado como personas. Tal vez ha sido difícil emocionalmente y de muchas otras formas, pero siguen adelante en su vida y yo creo que son personas increíbles, no sólo los jóvenes sino también la gente que vivió en ese entonces, como nuestros abuelos o los papás de algunos de nosotros. Entonces, yo creo que es digno de admirar el hecho de que ellos hayan logrado vencer las barreras y han estudiado y han tenido un mejor desarrollo personal, creo yo, sin importar todo lo que vivieron y las condiciones de las familias en los pueblos con todo lo que pasó. Y yo creo que sí, las consecuencias de lo que pasó se marcan mucho en el miedo que tienen algunas personas o sentimientos que tienen guardados que tal vez son resentimientos, pero los lastiman a ellos mismos por experiencias que no han sido agradables, que han sido realmente hirientes. Solamente.

Manuel C.: Estoy buscando mi guía espiritual.  Porque yo sé que necesito ayuda, tal vez no yo directamente, pero soy consecuencia también…

Cuando terminan las consecuencias?  Y como es que uno puede acabar con todo eso? 

Manuel C.: Pienso que nunca.  Tenemos que trabajar para pararlo y hacer las cosas correctas al mismo tiempo.

Student: Pero yo pienso que, no sé, siempre va a haber más de algún resentimiento porque, quiera que no, los que hablen se los cuentan a los hijos, a los nietos, verdad, los que sí hablan. Y, por ejemplo, en mi caso, yo sí tengo, aunque no lo viví, pero sí me cuentan y, al escuchar, siento que realmente la gente, nuestra gente, sí sufrió. Entonces, así, no sé, de la nada me viene ese resentimiento también, aunque no sé si es bueno o es malo, pero me duele, pues, lo que también vivieron mi gente y sí, realmente, y soy sincera, que me caen mal los soldados, aún trabajando allá. Sí, aún trabajando con ellos. Y me pongo a pensar siempre…

Miguel:  Yo soy de mentalidad antimilitar. O sea que yo jamás podría ser parte, o sea, votar por un militar. Yo no podría.

Vivir lo que… vivir tanto la experiencia de la comunidad, la experiencia guerrillera y la experiencia del ejército porque, de una u otra forma, son tres puntos de vista totalmente distintos. Totalmente distintos. Y si te das cuenta, del movimiento guerrillero nació el militar. El movimiento guerrillero es netamente militar. Si mirás la historia, comparás libros y documentos, el movimiento guerrillero es netamente militar. Y comparar la vida militar con la vida en la comunidad, llegás a un punto donde decís, bueno, en mi caso, te digo es mi particular, muy, muy particular caso y ahorita que… prácticamente ahorita Maria cerró un círculo que yo tenía semi borrado, porque es duro a veces reconocer que uno, por ejemplo en mi caso, yo por ciertas particulares cosas de mi vida decidí estudiar nutrición, porque sentí, bueno, o hago algo o muero en el intento, por mi sociedad, por mi pueblo. Pero ahí que se quede, porque hay cosas de tu pasado que vos las necesitas borrar, necesitás decir… bueno, reponer lo que de una u otra forma tu pasado hizo al mismo pueblo. Entonces, a veces es distinto, verdad, como te digo, eso se presta a toda la noche, verdad. Porque vos pudiste haber vivido en la mente militar con tu familia, pudiste haber vivido el ambiente de la comunidad o pudiste haber vivido el caso de la guerrilla… o como algunas familias muy particulares que vivieron los tres casos, que estuvieron tanto en el… Entonces, depende, depende en dónde hayás vivido y cómo hayás vos ahora limpiado tu cabeza y hayás estado… bueno, esas son las tres visiones. Ahora, qué me queda hacer por mí, o sea, ser un ejemplo, te digo, porque en mi caso, yo a mi abuela la amo, pues, porque sé por qué está aquí, sé por qué me tiene a mí, que a veces es parte de platicar con tu familia, platicar con tu familia es conocer tu pasado prácticamente, porque sabés por qué estás aquí en este momento, por qué estás estudiando, dónde vivís, por qué estás aquí, por qué [supistes?] de ahí, cuál es tu apellido, qué significa tu apellido, qué significa tu segundo apellido, qué significa tu nombre, por qué te pusieron eso. Todo tu pasado lo conocés [¿?] cuando platicás con tu familia y te presta… es muy complejo, a veces es muy complejo decir o definir las palabras. Es demasiado complejo, pero es parte de nuestra historia, parte con lo que vamos a vivir toda nuestra vida y detenerlo allí y ya es la decisión tuya qué hacer: o mejorar como persona y mejorar la sociedad o retroceder. Es un punto donde vos decidís seguir para adelante o seguir para atrás o quedarme donde mismo y no hacer nada. O sea, direcciones totalmente distintas que vos tenés la decisión de tomarlas.

Miguel: Esto se presta a bastantes cosas y… Y te felicito Maria. Unas de las palabras de A.G.: no cualquiera lo hace, no cualquiera tiene las agallas, hay personas que han muerto por haber hablado. Y es de reconocerlo, tú y todas las personas que están en libro, como le decía a… y esto me interesa a mí a veces es conocer las ideas de las personas, me gusta conocer las ideas, porque son ideas… por eso les hice la pregunta: qué de autores guatemaltecos y autores norteamericanos, porque ellos nos miran de una visión distinta y nosotros nos miramos de una visión distinta a lo que… pues, regresé a mi pregunta principal.

Student: Sólo como que un comentario por lo de Miguel de que hay tres puntos de vista: la comunidad, los militares y los guerrilleros. Yo pienso que tendríamos, como dijeron, tendríamos que entender los tres puntos de vista, pero yo siento que eso le concierne a una situación de ideales, porque yo creo que a lo largo de la historia algunos de nuestro pueblo siempre ha sido golpeado, se le han cerrado oportunidades y todo, entonces, como… sería… se supone que la guerrilla se originó por una búsqueda de igualdad de derechos y de oportunidades. Entonces… pero como siempre las personas que tienen como el poder no permiten que las otras personas vivan al menos en una situación humana, podría decir, como la de muchas comunidades, entonces, es algo difícil porque, aunque las cosas cambien, tendrían que cambiar mucho más en todas sus raíces y… o sea, no es imposible, pero como que no hay que ver sólo lo de ahora, sino el porqué se originó lo de la violencia, pero que en nuestro pueblo nuestra historia ha sido siempre difícil.

Student: Desde hace 500 años. Desde la invasión.

Miguel: O sea el origen en sí era perfecto, porque sólo éramos nosotros. El origen en sí de nosotros era perfecto. El problema fue España que se vino a meter. Porque España trajo lo… O sea, el origen de nosotros era el ideal, pero España vino y allí empezó el problema. Estábamos mejor.

AG: Pensamos en como el pueblo maya ha sufrido muchas cosas, cosas como ese problema que vivimos  y que usted está escribiendo.

Brenda: Sólo, qué oportunidades o qué formas o qué tan fácil podríamos nosotros obtener información acerca de los tres grupos, por decirte así. Entonces yo pienso que sólo a través de libros porque la gente no…

Miguel: Testimonios. O testimonios, no es fácil que la gente hable tanto… nuestra gente, los militares y las demás personas.

Es que eso es complejo, porque… sabés qué, por ejemplo, yo tenía un cuate que, él se llama Pichia, que diga, el otro era Mateo y esos dos… ellos dos sí te pueden decir los tres puntos de vista, porque han vivido los tres puntos de vista. Pero son raras las personas que han tenido esa oportunidad, o sea, no oportunidad sino que… o que hayan tenido esa vivencia tan terrible, pues. Y hablar con ellos… o sea, te lo dicen porque casi eran uña y mugre con ellos, pues. Porque te lo dicen ya…

Ahora me ayudás, porque, bueno, es que eso ya es responsabilidad, pero ya que Laurie es de amplio criterio. Por ejemplo, yo siento que hay cierta responsabilidad que cae también en la invasión gringa, porque si no fuera por la United Fruit Company estuvieran peleando el movimiento guerrillero demandas con los cafetales, nunca se hubiera dado el movimiento guerrillero. Muchos y…

Student: Y eso fue lo que habló Laurie, ayer precisamente, que dijo que por el silencio que guardaba cierta gente, que no sabe ella… que sí cree ella que realmente Estados Unidos financió…

Si, los Estados Unidos y Israel.   Israel dio las armas como helicopteros y los Estados Unidos dio las capacitaciones y el dinero.  Y por eso me importa tanto publicar este libro en los Estados Unidos, porque los norteamericanos no sabemos que pasó aqui y el papel del gobierno de los Estados Unidos.  

Una de los otros voluntarios es una profesora en una universidad en los Estados.  Tiene una cámara con video y quiere preguntarles si les gustaría dar sus testimonios en video, porque es muy poderoso ver la cara de una historia.  Tal vez podríamos llevar el video a los Estados Unidos y armar un programa educativo para estudiantes en los colegios o las universidades para ayudarles a entender sus experiencias.

Miguel: Es como, for example, I think the war to Iraq, que es lo que están haciendo ahorita en Iraq, un país que están invadiendo por el petróleo, son cosas que de una u otra forma ayudan. Qué consecuencias va a tener Iraq en 25 o 30 años, después de la invasión norteamericana.

Manuel C: Sí, sí, cuando nos invitó a participar en esto, sentí un poco de miedo.  Sí, me dio susto, porque pienso que sí, lo haré… tal vez mañana.

Brenda: Ella dice… empezó por lo de tener miedo en presentar todo eso, verdad. De las personas de quienes recopiló la información que escribió ella en el libro, algunos utilizaron sus nombres, otros no, pero por seguridad, otros sí dijeron yo voy a hablar la verdad y que sepan, no me importa, quién soy yo realmente y qué fue lo que viví. Eso fueron lo que pensaron y pusieron sus nombres, sus datos y todo. Y en Estados Unidos a ella le preguntaron lo mismo, si a ella no le da miedo que también fuera víctima de… o fuera a ser… verdad? Entonces dice ella que no, porque uno debe de decidir qué es lo que quiere hacer realmente, y esto puede ser un ejemplo para nosotros y decidir qué debemos de hacer realmente. Uno busca lo que quiere hacer realmente y hacerlo con decisión. Y ella eso es lo que ha hecho… hizo por nosotros.

Maria: Tengo entendido que el fin de semana piensan filmar todo para fines educativos, o sea, testimonios, por ejemplo, en el caso mío y de otros estudiantes. Bueno, en particular, sinceramente yo aún tengo miedo, entonces yo estoy segura de lo que quiero hacer, estoy segura de muchos de mis propósitos, de mis fines, pero no me gustaría un video porque yo pienso que… tengo miedo de involucrar a mi familia en el futuro, porque uno no sabe. Cada vez las cosas están peor en todas partes del mundo, entonces yo entiendo que ellos tengan la buena intención de que lo lleven a otro país y conozcan la historia, nuestra historia, nuestros casos y todo eso, pero pienso que… bueno, no sé, a mí todavía me da miedo. Todavía me da miedo. Yo participé en el libro y estoy muy agradecida con Laurie. Bueno, de hecho, sólo aparezco como María y todo eso, verdad, pero sí por cuestiones de seguridad. Yo creo que todos somos diferentes, entonces no me gustaría participar en el video.

Por su familia o por ti misma? 

Maria: Por mi y por mi familia.

Bueno, entonces yo creo que… bueno, sería de pensarlo. O sea, lo voy a pensar porque necesito analizar eso. Por qué? Porque no puedo afectar a otras personas. Entonces, yo puedo decir, o sea, aparte soy yo, aparte es mi familia. No quiero afectar a mi familia. Entonces, uno ama a sus seres queridos, yo algún día tendré familia… entonces… Lo voy a pensar.

Gracias por hablar franca y honestamente.  Me afecta mucho.  

Miguel: Y felicidades a usted.

Antonio, Ana, Maria

Antonio:

My name is Antonio. I am 24, I was born in 1981 at the time of the worse crisis in Guatemala. I was about 1 year old when Rios Montt became president, and he was the one that created the civil war and had many people massacred in different parts of the country. When I was born, my father had just graduated as a teacher and he knew that it was very dangerous to work in the west, where I’m from. Since the young teachers were sent to faraway places and there was fear of losing your life, my father decided that we should go to Huehuetenango when I was about one year old, while we waited to see if the situation got better or worse. We knew that Huehuetenango was a little less dangerous than other places towards the north of the Department. I was about 3 and one of my uncles, my mother’s brother, had also just finished his teaching degree and was working in a community in the Ixcan . He had just started to work there and he was going from the capital to his job and disappeared.

We don’t know how, or when, and I think that left a mark forever, mainly on my grandmother, his mother. They were looking for him for a long time, but there are no record of what happened to him. At that time, transportation was very limited, and my uncle had to walk for a couple of days to get to his job, he would stay there for a long time, a month, 2 months, and he would come for a week or two. One of those times was when he disappeared. My mother tells me that during his last trip, he came to see my mother to visit, and that was the last time they heard from him. They don’t know anything else. That’s what I could say about what my family, mostly on my mother’s side, suffered with my uncle’s  disappearance. Just that.

Have you told other people about these experiences?

Maria:

I think it’s important because I didn’t tell my mother what I saw (a young mother and her baby shot by soldiers). And during those years, 6 or 7, I was always afraid, frightened. I grew up very different than my brothers. I could see that they were different than me because they hadn’t seen what I saw. Then, after I talked to my mother, I felt much better and I feel that talking to people about what one experiences is very important because it’s a way to vent your feelings. It’s a way of saying that another person feels what I felt, not just me, and it makes you feel understood. And yes, I think it’s very important to talk about what happened, that people know what others have suffered, because many people don’t know about it and many have suffered even more than us.

Antonio:

I think it’s important to talk about it, mainly with young people because the ones that are 14, 15, 16, they know that there was a difficult time for the country, but very superficially. They don’t try to find out whether their families were involved or not. In my case, I know that what happened with my family was painful, but, as our classmate was saying, they suffer even more in other places. I remember my father telling me that there were times when the Army would get to the houses and they would take anybody in the house that had books from their “red list” of books. When my father was studying he had good books, works of literature that he used while studying. But my grandfather got scared and burned them. Maybe for lack of knowledge since my grandpa didn’t know how to read, but also because he was afraid that the Army would accuse him of being involved in something which he didn’t even know about. I realize that sometimes when I go to my town, the young people now are very different, they have other ideas, and don’t know what happened. I think it’s good that they know the history so when they are electing Representatives, they choose them well so that they know how to work for the whole country, and to avoid a repeat of what happened.

Ana:

My name is Ana. I really didn’t suffer anything during the civil war, but my parents did. My mother tells me that when she was young, she was 18 then, they were always afraid and I think they still feel it, because she told me that even seeing the Army made them afraid. What they did to the young women then was to rape them, so my mother would hide so that she wasn’t raped. At that time, my father had just graduated and he was working at a school. He had to hide because they had the list of teachers, parents, and everybody who knew how to read and write. And so my father went to the mountains to hide from the Army. My grandfather did, too. Even if I didn’t live through it, just by knowing so many stories, I feel hurt.

And so I wonder why these things happened since we are not animals. And I wonder why those problems still happen when supposedly there is now the Peace Agreement. I think that’s why it’s good to have these talks, that the people who suffered talk to the younger ones so that they can understand because the younger ones are not aware of what happened. Many young people do not think about what they do. And I think that us, the indigenous, have to get ahead, look for other opportunities, and going to university is one of the ways, but very few have access to it. The younger ones have to be pushed to go forward, especially the indigenous.

I have another question. Sometimes people feel that talking about difficult and painful things is too hard and not a good thing to do. And sometimes people feel that talking together in a group where other people understand your experience makes you feel less alone.  Do you think that it will be helpful if the program offered an opportunity to talk together about your experiences?

Maria:

In my case, for instance, I don’t think it’s so much help in sharing with others, but helping us look further, to have ambition for something better for us, for our culture. We don’t talk much about this in the program, like the others classmates pointed out, unless you make good friends with someone to share these things. I didn’t want to talk about it for some time. I wanted to forget, to have a new life, but there are moments in which I needed to talk, to share with someone else and feel that I wasn’t alone.

Antonio, Ana, Maria

Antonio:

Mi nombre es Antonio …. Tengo 24 anos, naci en 1981 que es la epoca de la peor crisis en Guatemala. Yo mas o menos tenia un ano de edad cuando tomo la presidencia Rios Montt, que fue el que se encargo de crear la guerra civil y de mandar a masacrar a muchas personas en diferentes partes del pais. Cuando yo naci mi papa era recien graduado de maestro y el sabia bien que trabajar en el occidente que es de donde soy yo, de Huehuetenango, era peligroso. Por el hecho de que a los maestros jovenes los mandaban siempre a lugares lejanos. Por el temor de perder la vida, y yo ya habia nacido, tenia un poco mas de un ano, se que mi padre decidio que nos pasaramos a vivir a Huehuetenango, mientras que esperabamos a ver si mejoraba o empeoraba la situación.

Sabíamos que Huehuetenango era una ciudad menos peligrosa que vivir mas al norte del departamento. Yo tenia como 3 anos cuando un tio, hermano de mi madre, que tambien era recien graduado de maestro y trabajaba en una comunidad cercana a Iscan, que en este momento no recuerdo su nombre. Y en una ocasión que el tenia poco de haber empezado a trabajar alla e hizo un viaje de aquí de la capital, de Guatemala, para su trabajo y de repente desaparecio. No se sabe como, ni cuando, y yo pienso que eso dejo marcada para siempre mas que todo a mi abuela, la mama de el. Lo estuvieron buscando por bastante tiempo pero no hay registros de nada absolutemente. Puesto que en ese tiempo los medios de transporte eran muy limitados, mi tio tenia que caminar bastante por un par de dias para llegar a su lugar de trabajo y siempre se iba por largo tiempo, un mes, dos meses, y venia por una semana o 15 dias. Y en una de esas fue que desaparecio. Mi madre me cuenta de que en su ultimo viaje todavia llego a mi casa a ver a mi madre, a visitarlos y esa fue la ultima vez que tuvieron noticias de el. De ahí en adelante nada, no se sabe nada de el. Eso es lo que yo podria decir acerca de lo que mi familia, especialmente la de mi madre, sufrieron con la desaparicion de mi tio. Unicamente.

Ha contado estas historias o experiencias a otras personas?

Maria:

Yo pienso que es importante porque despues de lo que yo pude ver no se lo conté a mi. Entonces en ese lapso de tiempo, unos 6 o 7 anos, no recuerdo bien, vivia muy asustada, muy temerosa. Yo creci muy distinta a mis hermanos. Yo me daba cuenta que ellos eran distintos a mi porque ellos no habian visto lo que yo vi. Entonces despues de haber hablado con mi mama yo me senti mucho mejor y yo siento que platicar con la gente de lo que uno vive es bastante importante porque es una forma de desahogarse. Una forma de decir que el siente lo que yo senti, no solo yo y uno se siente comprendido. Pero si pienso que es bastante importante hablar de lo que ha pasado, que la gente conozca lo que los demas han sufrido porque mucha gente no lo sabe y muchos han sufrido mucho mas que nosotros.

Antonio:
Yo considero que es importante hablar de esto mas que todo con unos jovenes porque ellos, los que estan de 14, 15, 16 anos, ellos saben que existio un momento dificil en el pais, pero de manera muy general. No se preocupan por ver si su familia estuvo involucrada o no. En mi caso yo se que lo que paso con mi familia fue doloroso pero, como dice la companera, en otros lados sufrieron mas. Yo recuerdo bien que mi papa me contaba que habia ocasiones en que el ejercito iba a las casas y cualquier persona que tuviera un documento que se llamaba el libro rojo, como protesta, entonces se llevaban al que habitara en esa casa. Mi papa cuando estaba estudiando tenia buenos libros, obras literarias que uso cuando estaba estudiando. Pero por temor a eso mi abuelo decidio quemar esos libros. Tal vez tambien por un desconocimiento de mi abuelo que no sabia leer y tambien tenia miedo porque le ejercito lo podia involucrar en algo de lo que a lo mejor no tenia ni conocimiento. Yo me doy cuenta que a veces cuando llego a mi pueblo, los jovenes ahora son completamente diferentes y tienen otras ideas y no saben lo que paso. Yo creo que es bueno que conozcan la historia para que al momento de elegir a los representantes los elijan bien para que sepan trabajar por todo el pueblo y que no vuelva a repetirse lo que sucedió.

Ana:
Mi nombre es Ana. La verdad es que yo no sufri nada de la guerra civil pero mis padres si. Mi mama me contaba que cuando ella era joven, en esa epoca tenia 18 anos, siempre vivian con susto y yo creo que ellos todavia lo viven porque según ella me contaba ver al ejercito le daba miedo. Y lo que hacian antes a las mujeres mas jovenes es que las violaban entonces mi mama lo que hacia era esconderse para que no fuera violada. En ese entonces mi papa era recien graduado, estaba trabajando en una escuela y se tuvo que esconder porque tenian la lista de los maestros, de los padres, de todas las personas que saben leer y escribir. Y entonces mi papa se escondia del ejercito, se fue a la montana. Mi abuelito tambien. Yo creo que es algo que yo no lo vivi pero solo por el hecho de conocer muchas historias pues a uno tambien le duele. Entonces uno se pregunta si nosotros no somos animales, por que se dieron esas cosas. Y algo que a veces yo me pregunto porque aun se dan esos problemas porque ya no hay guerra civil, asi como decia Juan Carlos que supuestamente ya esta la paz pero hay otros problemas que nos estan atacando. Entonces es mejor dar estas charlas, que los afectados hablen a los mas jovenes para que lleguen a entender porque los jovenes no estan conscientes de lo que hacen. Muchos jovenes ya no reflexionan sobre lo que hacen y yo creo que uno como indigena, hay que salir adelante, buscar otras oportunidades y en las universidades es una de las puertas que muy pocos tenemos la oportunidad de llegar. Hay que hacerlo, a los mas jovenes hay que impulsarlos a seguir adelante, especialmente a los indígenas.

Tengo otra pregunta.  A veces las personas sienten que hablar de cosas difíciles y dolorosas es demasiado costoso y no es una cosa buena.  Y a veces las personas sienten que hablar con un grupo donde otras personas entienden tus experiencias te hace sentir no tan solo.  Entonces, piensan que ayudaría en este programa tener una oportunidad de hablar con los otros estudiantes sobre sus experiencias durante la violencia?

Maria:
En mi caso por ejemplo yo pienso que no es tanto una ayuda de compartir con los demas lo que hemos vivido sino la ayuda de ver mas alla, de aspirar y saber que existen cosas mejores para uno, mas que todo para nuestra cultura. En la Fundacion casi no se habla de esto, como decian los demas companeros, a no ser que uno haga bastante amistad con alguien como para compartir esas cosas. En mi caso, un tiempo yo no queria hablar de esto. Queria olvidar todo, una nueva vida, pero hay momentos en que uno necesita hablar, compartir con esa persona para darse cuenta de que no esta uno solo.

 

Héctor

Hector:
I’m not very old. I’m 19, but I lived the war directly. The war is not very much heard of in San Marcos because its impact was mostly in places like Huehuetenango and Quiche. But it happened there. My father was a teacher at a town in San Marcos, in the municipality of Comitancillo and we were with him, of course. But this town was very attacked by the Army. They would come and take the rural school, the elementary school and they stayed there and controlled the whole community. Nobody could leave their houses and if they didn’t have food or water, that was their problem. You had to stay in your house because we knew that the guerrilla would go by and our families had to provide them with food, tamales and whatever they needed. So, they (the Army) found out about it and that’s why they took control of the town. And precisely in 1992, both groups got together in the same place, in the same town, and there was a conflict in the center of town and it lasted 3 days and a half, day and night, and we could only take our corn crop, put it together, and we got under the beds. The corn was just to prevent the bullets from going through because our houses had very thin walls. What really had an impact on me at that moment was that my father took out the propane tank that we had because he knew that if there was a bullet it could cause an explosion. He took the tank and went out running in the middle of the shooting to throw it far away. At that moment, we could only wait for him to be shot. Thank God it didn’t happen. We had only water for 3 days because we didn’t have enough food.

This is not that my parents have told me, it is something I remember, so it is my own experience. Some of my uncles were injured, but nobody in my family was killed, but others that we knew were killed and many disappeared. There were people from our own town that would tell the Army who they thought was helping the guerrilla and they would disappear and we wouldn’t hear about them again.

What I saw is what I just told you. The bombs were exploding near the house because we could hear it. Some of them injured some people badly. My parents were not killed. My father took part in several protests in the capital. He studied at San Carlos University and it was very damaged by the Army, so that was a constant fear we had. He fought in favor of the university.

Has this affected me or my family? Of course. I still suffer from insomnia, I can’t sleep well. It’s had a psychological impact because we were constantly expecting the Army attacks which happened several times at night, so there was constant activity at night that wouldn’t let us sleep well, and even now I can’t sleep well.

I’m studying Law at the university and what happened influenced me to study this, because I know that the politics, the laws were the cause of the conflict. The law was unfair, it still is now, but then it was even worse. The politicians used their power to repress the town and control the whole country. That was what motivated me to choose a career that was related to society. My society, the one in which I live, and the people who have many sequelae from the war as we can see now in the violence that happens in our cities, mainly in the capital which is where many people join maras (gangs). That delinquency was caused because of the violence that the people suffered because many of the young people that live in the maras actually are orphans from the war.

I can tell this story and I hope that it will help other people to understand. The constant fear has affected us directly, but indirectly too, since there wasn’t a lot of commerce between the towns because it was very dangerous to go from one town to another since the Army was on the road and they would take people or torture them. It was really hard because several of my neighbors were tortured or mutilated.

When I have children, because I don’t have them yet, I will tell them the history of how things happened because they will be the ones, when we die, that will continue in this country and it depends on them that this country changes. So, if they have a knowledge of what happened in our country, they’ll have a social conscience to change that history, to prevent it from happening again and to put an end to the sequelae. And mostly, in regards to the children that my friends have or that I’ll have someday, the main thing is to educate them without violence because when a parent is violent with their kids, he’s teaching them about violence and placing the seeds for violence again in them. This is all I have to say. Thanks for this time.